Not all young earth creationists are YECs

On the same site where I was debating yesterday, a discussion arose as to whether Augustine and other ancients were YECs (Young Earth Creationists). Some atheist scientists (one in particular) were arguing that they were, while a few of us argued that they were not.

The basis of our argument is not that Augustine and his brohs believed in an old earth (why would they?) but rather they were not at all like what the the term YEC has come to mean. I had this exachange:

Me: People are concentrating on Augustine as an example of someone who believed in a young earth (why wouldn’t he?) and yet was not a YEC. (@dga471 is, IMO, correct. Usage is king and today’s usage is that YEC == somewhere in the neighborhood of Ken Ham.) 

Augustine wasn’t the only “church father” (if you can call him that) who was not a YEC. YECs generally interpret God’s warning “on that day (that you eat from the forbidden tree) you will surely die” as meaning something like on that day you will begin the process of dying. The problem being that Adam breathed for another 900+ years. 

But in the early church famous figures solved this problem differently, with a millennial day solution. 

For example Justin Martyr (c. 100-165) wrote: 

For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years [Gen. 5:5]. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression ‘The day of the Lord is a thousand years’ [Ps. 90:4] is connected with this subject" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, 81 [A.D. 155]).

 What Justin is saying, is that a solution to the Adam-did-not-die-as-God-promised problem is to take “day” in Gen. 2:17 to mean a thousand years, a la Ps. 90:4 and 2 Pet 3:8. So he was a young earth creationist, I suppose, but definitely not a YEC. 

Others had, at least at times, similar non-literal views of Genesis days, including Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen.

Someone else: That, however, is not a requirement for being a YEC. In fact I’ve commonly heard another explanation/excuse: that the death referred to is spiritual death rather than physical. 

Me: You may have heard the spiritual death explanation commonly, but not commonly from YECs. It is a position of many OECs to explain how, as scripture says, death could enter through one man if in fact there was lots of death prior to the fall. At the 99% level when OECs make that argument, YECs say “no, no, no, Adam’s death must refer to physical death.” You are simply wrong. 

Same someone else: And I’d say that anyone who thinks that the days of creation were each a thousand years long is still a YEC. Sorry. 

Me: No worries, we live in a post-modern world where everyone is entitled to their own definition of words. 

Same someone else: Your definition seems particularly odd, as you say that some young earth creationists are not YECs; you’re defining the acronym in opposition to the words it stands for. 

Me: It is not odd at all. The term YEC has come, from usage, to mean the form of young earth creationism that sprung up as a result of the advent of evolutionary theory. It was recognized that evolution needed a great deal of time, and so modern YECism arose in an attempt to deny it that time. YECs proclaim a young earth in spite of the overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary. That is the distinguishing mark of a YEC, and it is not shared by the ancients. Augustine and others from the first 500 years? I don’t actually know how old they thought the earth was, they probably just accepted whatever the consensus was, which was certainly not billions of years. But they didn’t dig their heels in in the ground in the face of scientific evidence. You really don’t see the difference? 

In the very same way, ancients who might have believed the earth was flat are not the same as modern “Flat Earthers” who, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, still proclaim flatness. Again, you don’t see a difference? It’s one bin for all? 

And there the discussion ended.

 Soon classes will start and I’ll have no time for these guilty pleasures.